DAVE DAVIES, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. Pete Rose, one of the most accomplished players ever to compete in Major League baseball - and one of the most controversial - died last week at the age of 83. Rose reached extraordinary heights in the game - a 17-time all-star, winner of three World Series titles and the all-time Major League hits leader - before it all came crashing down with an investigation into his gambling habit. In 1989, Baseball Commissioner Bart Giamatti banned him for life from the game after concluding Rose had bet on baseball. He also served five months in prison for evading taxes on his gambling earnings and baseball memorabilia sales.
That was 35 years ago, and Rose spent the rest of his life campaigning for readmission to the game, which could get him into baseball's hall of fame. It never happened. But in 2004, he wrote a book called "My Prison Without Bars," a memoir in which he finally admitted he'd bet on baseball games and pleaded for an end to his exile. That's when I spoke to Pete Rose about his baseball career and his gambling problem.
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DAVIES: Pete Rose, welcome to FRESH AIR.
PETE ROSE: Thank you, Dave.
DAVIES: Good to have you. You know, I'm going to share with you my favorite Pete Rose memory as a player.
ROSE: OK.
DAVIES: It was at bat late in an inning. You were playing for the Phillies. And I don't remember the exact team you were playing against, but the situation was it was late innings. The Phillies were down several runs. And what you needed to do in that situation was get on base, not get a double, not get a triple, just find a way to get to first base, a walk, a hit batsman, anything. The pitcher makes a mistake.
You're batting left-handed, I believe, throws it at your right calf. And knowing the game situation, in the split second it takes you to react, your leg doesn't move because you know that if you're hit, you're on first base. The ball whacks your leg hard, flies 30 feet away. You glare back at the pitcher, fling the bat to the side, sprint to first. That's a kind of focus that's really unique in the game. And I'm kind of - I wanted to ask you, what do you think gives you that kind of single-minded focus on baseball when you were a player?
ROSE: Well, I think the fact that my top priority playing the game of baseball was always, one, to be involved in the game, knowing the situation of the game, and two, and probably most importantly, always wanting to win the game. I think that's why you play the game of sports, especially professionally, is someone's got to win, someone's got to lose. And I always recommended winning a lot more than I did losing.
DAVIES: And you worked at it.
ROSE: Yes.
DAVIES: I mean, you studied every pitcher. You charted every pitch, right?
ROSE: Well, yeah, you have to - yeah, it's your occupation. I mean, there's only 10 pitchers in your league, and there's 15 teams. So there's only 150 pitchers that you have to have written down in the back of your head. And the guys I had trouble with were rookie pitchers until I saw them once, and once I saw them - because for Dave Davies to tell me this guy's got a fastball, breaking ball and a change-up doesn't mean anything until I see is this fastball a sinker? Is it a straight fastball? Is it a sailing fastball? You know, is it a riser or is this curveball a downer? Is it a sidewinder? And so you have to see and get firsthand experience what the guy's ball does.
DAVIES: You write that when there was a rain delay, other guys would be playing cards in the clubhouse. You'd find a way to get to the cage and take batting practice. You just never quit.
ROSE: Well, sometimes, not all the time. Now, what I said, you've probably read, what I said is a lot of times during rain delays nowadays, because of the indoor batting cages they have underneath the stadiums - I mean, I know several times during rain delays, I was in the batting cage throwing Joe Morgan extra batting practice because he, you know, might've been in a little bit of a slump at the time. Not a lot of times with Joe Morgan but more than twice, and then he would do the same for me. So the best time to work on your swing, Dave, is during the game if you can - and the only time you can is a rain delay - or right after the game.
You know, I used to take my extra batting practice right after the game because it's fresh on my mind what I'm doing wrong. And you're still all leathered up from the game. And if you go take your shower and go home and come to the ballpark the next day, well, one, you're going to do it so much, you're going to be tired for the game. And two, you might have forgot what you were doing wrong from the time you left the ballpark the night before. So I always thought that the best time to take extra batting practice to work on a slump if you were in one was right after the game.
DAVIES: You know, I mentioned the focus because you write in the book that you now suspect you had attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. I mean, do you think that you had a different kind of mental attitude and focus, I mean, wired differently?
ROSE: Well, yeah, I think I had a different mental attitude based on my upbringing. I had a defiant mother and super-super-super-aggressive father that hated to lose. And that was instilled in me and my brother and my two sisters all while we were growing up, I mean, you know, religiously. My dad was a basketball player. I was the ball boy. I was a water boy on the football team. I was bat boy on the baseball team. And I can remember his attitude when they would lose a game on the way home. He wasn't the same person. He wasn't nasty, but he just wasn't in as good a mood when he lost the game as opposed to when he won the game. And if he's in a bad mood, then that would put my mom in a bad mood because she wanted to be around a positive situation.
DAVIES: So winning was a prerequisite to comfort and happiness.
ROSE: Yes.
DAVIES: How would you react if you ever made a mental error or just blew it?
ROSE: Well, it bothered me. It bothered me because, one, physical errors are part of the game. And I always thought if you made mental errors that you were letting down the pitcher. And if I made a mental error, it would bother me more if I struck out four times, especially if we lost the game because of a mental error because if you understand the game and you practice the game the right way and you study the game, you should know what base to throw to, when not to get thrown out at second or get thrown out at third, you know, different things that are mental errors. And there's a lot of mental errors made every day, and it's OK to make a mental error. But once you make that mental error, you got to write that down in the back of your head and don't do it again, because...
DAVIES: And I think you write in the book you'd be hell at home. You'd stomp around and finally have to let out a big scream sometimes.
ROSE: Well, yeah, because my wife could actually tell, not if I struck out four times or if I got four hits, but she could tell if I made a blunder and it cost us the game...
DAVIES: Right.
ROSE: ...Because I would take that away from the ballpark. I wouldn't take striking out four times away from the ballpark, or I wouldn't take going 4 for 4 away from the ballpark. That was part of the game because I just felt like when you made mental errors, you're letting people down who have families, too. And those people you let down because of a mental error are usually the pitchers.
DAVIES: Right. I wanted to ask about your relationship with Mike Schmidt. He was, of course, one of the greats of the game, a hall of fame third baseman. Now, he has been one of your staunchest defenders and advocates in all the controversies you've faced...
ROSE: Right.
DAVIES: ...I mean, really advocated for you to get back into the game.
ROSE: Right.
DAVIES: You write that when you joined the Phillies in '79, Schmidt was already an all-star and a big player.
ROSE: Right.
DAVIES: You described him as a guy who was the greatest player on the field three days a week...
ROSE: Yeah.
DAVIES: ...But when you got there, you made him a great player every day. How?
ROSE: Well, I think I helped him. See what happened, Dave, is, you know, Mike Schmidt, when I got there, was a great player. Matter of fact, he's the greatest player I've ever played with, and he's the greatest third baseman ever to play the game of baseball. But Mike had to understand that regardless of how good he played, he was only going to hit from 40 to 50 home runs. And you play 162 games. But what I made Mike understand is you can win games with your leadership. You can win games with your glove. You can win games with your speed. You can win games hitting home runs.
DAVIES: Pete Rose recorded in 2004. We'll hear more of our conversation after this break. This is FRESH AIR.
This is FRESH AIR, and we're listening to the interview I recorded with baseball legend Pete Rose in 2004. He'd published a book titled "My Prison Without Bars," in which he admitted having bet on baseball and advocated for the removal of his banishment from the game. Rose died last week at the age of 83.
Now, Pete, you say you were around gambling a lot as a kid. Tell me...
ROSE: Well, let me rephrase that, OK?
DAVIES: OK.
ROSE: I was around going to the races.
DAVIES: OK.
ROSE: You know, when I was a kid, I didn't know anything about - or my dad - knew anything about bookmakers, or casinos weren't a big thing or anything like that. But most of the guys in our neighborhood would patronize the races periodically, not on a daily basis 'cause my dad was a banker, and he went to the bank Monday through Friday. But every once in a while on a Saturday or Sunday with Don Zimmer's dad Dud, they would go over to - at that time, it was called Latonia.
DAVIES: Right.
ROSE: And he would take me with him.
DAVIES: OK. So not immersed in gambling, but it was sort of...
ROSE: Right.
DAVIES: ...A part of the culture there in your neighborhood in Cincinnati.
ROSE: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.
DAVIES: Now, when - you write about coming up as a minor leaguer, and you moved up very quickly to the majors, I mean, because, you know, the hustle and talent you showed. Were you betting then? Were you gambling then at all? I mean, as a young player.
ROSE: I don't think - you talking about the minor leagues?
DAVIES: Well, the minor leagues, in your early years in the majors, in the '70s. Yeah.
ROSE: Well, I think my early years in the majors, when we went to spring training, most all the players were at the dog track every night, St. Pete, for one because it had the best prime rib you could ever taste and, two, it was just where everybody went to do things at night. I mean, just - you know, Joe Torre was there, and Zimmer was there, and a lot of my teammates were there. I mean, you know, you wouldn't go by yourself, but - and you didn't go every night, mostly weekends.
DAVIES: Right. Gambling, of course, was a legal activity in all these places.
ROSE: Yeah.
DAVIES: And a lot of people did it. But clearly, at some point, it became a different part of your life, and that's kind of what I wanted to get to. I mean, you described yourself as a recreational gambler a lot of those years.
ROSE: Right. Yeah.
DAVIES: When did it get different? When did it become a problem?
ROSE: Well, I think in the latter part of the '80s, I just got a little bit out of control. I started - got associated with the wrong people and just started, you know, wagering a little bit too much.
DAVIES: Do you have an insight into sort of how that happened? Was there something in your life that drove you to do that?
ROSE: The only thing I can think of is that I was through as a player. Up till, you know, '87, I was a player. And once I stopped playing, stopped taking batting practice, stopped taking fielding and practice, things like that, I had a void there. And I just had more time to think.
DAVIES: The back picture of your book is you standing on first base after you finally broke Ty Cobb's record, the all-time hit record. And your hand is over your face because the tears are coming. You're thinking of your dad. But you write in the book that when you finally broke that record, you felt a letdown. I don't mean that moment, but in the days and weeks that followed, you - there was a letdown you felt. Describe that. Why was that?
ROSE: Well, because there was such a buildup to the record. I mean, I had hundreds of writers following every move that I made. And, you know, that's one of the most coveted records there ever was in baseball. You know, the reason I survived as a baseball player is I always needed challenges. You understand what I'm saying?
DAVIES: Right.
ROSE: I wanted to be the first singles hitter to hit 100,000. I wanted to be the all-time hit leader. I wanted to be the all-time this guy. I wanted to play five different positions. And, you know, not right when I did it, but after I did it, it - all was left is, what is the final number going to be? You know, I run out of challenges.
DAVIES: Right.
ROSE: Individual challenges.
DAVIES: I guess what I'm curious about - I mean, for a guy who at his baseball career was so focused, so committed to doing everything you needed to do to win and so careful and conscientious, to have gotten as careless as you ultimately did to bet on baseball and to bet as frequently as you did on a lot of things suggests that you did have a gambling problem. I mean, there must have been some compulsion that made you make a lot of bets, and a lot of fairly big bets. And I'm wondering, how you tamed that demon. I mean, don't you ever - do you no longer feel like you need to get in the action every day?
ROSE: Well, first of all, you have to understand - if you're inside my head and you lose what I lose - and as you sit here and talk to me today, I'm 62 years old now. All right? I'm a little different than I was when I was 42 or when I was 32 or when I was 50. And you see things from a different perspective. And I don't want to go through what I went through the last 14 years. And if you start gambling again, that's what's going to happen. And I'm smart enough to understand that.
DAVIES: Right.
ROSE: I mean, that's the way I look at it. I don't have no desires to bet on a Super Bowl or bet on a basketball game or bet on a - I have no desires to do that. It's not - it's no fun for me anymore.
DAVIES: Right.
ROSE: I don't get the kick out of it.
DAVIES: You know, people write books for a lot of reasons. I mean, this is your second. One of the reasons, of course, is to sell copies. But this book of yours is different, I think. I mean, there was a mission here.
ROSE: Yeah.
DAVIES: You wanted to tell the truth, apologize...
ROSE: Right.
DAVIES: ...And strengthen your case to return to baseball. And there are a lot of ways to apologize, of course, a lot of ways to tell a story. And I'm wondering if you thought much and talked to your collaborator much about how best to, you know - well, pardon the expression, but to package this apology so that, you know, it would help you get where you want to be, which is back in baseball.
ROSE: Before the people are misled here, there's only three chapters about gambling. So you got to remember, the book is about 62 years of my life. It's just not about the gambling allegations.
DAVIES: Right. Although, I mean, a lot of it does involve some of the controversies that came from it. I mean, you wrote an earlier book about baseball. I mean, it's a very different experience to have to go to prison, and I think those are told well. Probably the most quoted part of the new book in the immediate aftermath of its release was where you say that - you know, that maybe you ought to bear your feelings a lot more, but that you're just not built that way. And now let's move on. And that's provoked something of a reaction. What do you make of the reaction to that, Pete?
ROSE: Well, here's the way I look at it - that some guys that read the book think I'm remorseful enough. Other guys don't think I'm remorseful enough. Now, I could have took and said, I'm sorry in a different way in 10 or 12 more pages. Then I could just hear them saying how phony I am. I'm not a real remorseful-type guy. The picture on the back page - it took 8 1/2 minutes of a 9-minute standing ovation to make me cry.
I don't go to movies and cry. I'm not a crier. I'm not a hugger. You know, my dad never hugged me and kissed me and told me he loved me. I knew he did. But I do it to my sons. I mean, I tell them I love them. I can hug them. I kiss them. But I'm just not a real - I'm not a real delicate-type guy. And if I was, I wouldn't have got 4,200 hits. I mean, I'm a baseball player. You know, I'm not an author. I'm not a politician. You know, I'm a baseball player. And it takes a lot for me to say I'm sorry.
Dave, it's hard to put down remorse on a piece of paper. You know, it's easy for you to see me being remorseful if I'm on Charles Gibson or Bill O'Reilly or this show or that show because you're looking at my face, you're listening to my voice. Or on the radio, they're hearing my voice. It's all interpretation. It's how how you want to read it. I mean, you know what I'm talking about?
DAVIES: Yeah.
ROSE: I mean, it's all how you want to read it.
DAVIES: Well, another issue...
ROSE: How did you read it? How did you read it? Let me ask you. You don't know me, but how did you read it?
DAVIES: Well, at times, I thought you were really trying to get at what made you tick. And I thought that was really interesting.
ROSE: OK. That's good.
DAVIES: And I'm not sure how you apologize deeply enough to make everybody happy.
ROSE: Well, see, that's the point. You're absolutely right there, Dave, that's the point. How can you do it? What's the fine line to make everybody happy? What's the fine line where I don't overdo it? Then the guys in the media say, what a phony a** book that is. That's not Pete Rose getting down his hands and knees and begging. That's not him. You understand what I'm saying?
DAVIES: Well...
ROSE: That's what was tough about writing this book - because my personality is who I am, and my personality is how I act.
DAVIES: Maybe the mistake was the three words, let's move on.
ROSE: Well, I'm trying to move on. I'm trying to move on, but, you know, I'm sitting here talking to you.
DAVIES: I guess people...
ROSE: All you're doing is relishing in the past. I want to move on. I got a clean slate. I'm trying to move on. Why won't anybody let me move on? All I've been hearing - all I've been hearing, Dave, for the last 14 years - and George Bush even said it on Bob Costas - if Pete comes clean, give him a second chance and let him go on with his life. Well, I've come clean. Now, what's the problem now?
DAVIES: Pete Rose, thanks much for joining us.
ROSE: Dave, thank you for being fair, and it was a pleasure talking to you.
DAVIES: Pete Rose recorded in 2004. Here's a postscript to that conversation 20 years ago. It was one of the first interviews I did when I began filling in for FRESH AIR host Terry Gross. Rose and I were in different cities, connected by fiber-optic cable. While we were waiting to get started and he didn't realize his mic was open, I heard him say to his publicist, do you think it's bad that I have this guy instead of the girl? That was Pete, always focused on optimizing results. He died September 30. He was 83. Coming up, David Bianculli reviews "Saturday Night," the new film about the making of the first episode of NBC's "Saturday Night Live." This is FRESH AIR. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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